Discussion on 2020 expo

Hi all,

Just an update regarding the permit.....in short, its not arrived yet, but i'm still hopeful. I'll check up on it again in the next couple of days.

But first off....

Who's still keen to go if we get the permit?? It seems a big expedition is rather unlikely now, but a short one in September may be do-able, with slimmed-down, lower-risk objectives. There is of course surface work to do, 27/9 to push, and whereas a big push on the upstream leads in C4 is probably not on due to likely limited group size and also higher risk, some work could be done in here to improve rigging, replace ropes and generally get it ready for a bigger effort in 2021?

So, then theres the question of risk, ethics and practicalities and whether it's worth it/even possible this year?

Would we be welcome there (the Dales has been very hostile to visitors) and if so would going there damage good relationships built up over years?
'Should' we go....the community of Cangas for example is mainly elderly and we're coming via a high probable means of contracting the virus (via airports etc, high density populations) and we cant maintain adequate hygiene at the Refugio.
What if the UK has a second wave and the country gets locked down again?
What if the same happens in Spain? Especially after they've let all the brits in again....
What about insurance? What if someone up at ario gets covid? You will not be insured if anything happens involving covid and being insured is a strict pre-requisite of the permit.
Even context dependant, caving and hiking are higher risk.

Of course, COVID-19 is likely to be around for a while now so we cant let it just stall our lives, but theres no denying we're still in the thick of it, and after seeing the behavior of many in the UK, a second wave seems rather likely which would prob hit august sometime. And the caves are going to be around forever.

The pros.....supporting the refugio, assuming they want us (i've just emailed Ignacio to see how they're getting on) would be a very worthy thing.

Anyways, this is more to start a discussion, gauge interest, see who is happy to take risk, any other factors to bear in mind, so at least if we get the permit soon we already have decided what to do :-) Please discuss and state interest below... :-) Thanks all!

This is actually a perfect year for me to come to the Ario again, but oh hell... the COVID-19 messed up the plan completely. I am now working in HK for those who doesn't know, so it will be a totally different situation for me, as I will not be treated like others flying from continental Europe. Although not very relevant, there seems to be a second wave in Hong Kong in the last two days, even we are just a dot on a bloody big world map... Even worse is that, I will have to undergo 14 days of quarantine if I land in HK before 18/9/2020 - the gov set this regulation, and there is a chance of extension. So, to sum it up, even I don't want to be such pessimistic, the chance of me joining would be low, though I an very interesting especially heard from Rory what has been found last year.

It might be a different story for those in the UK or Europe... In my opinion, the current situation is so uncertain, it seems too risky to put up a green light...

All things considered, I am still keen to go this year.

Obviously it depends on us getting a permit and the pandemic situation not deteriorating significantly beforehand.

But, we have a wide open lead left at the head of a pitch. We could be exploring new cave within 2 hours of leaving the refugio door! 27/9 is in the area where C4 and 2/7 connect, so there is a good chance that it could drop into the remote upstream part of 2/7 that has had only minimal exploration in the past. It's not the easiest cave, but it's the picos, so knarly rift is to be expected.

I think with a team of 4 or 5 we could make good progress, push the bottom of 27/9 and survey last years finds.

We'd just have to take our chances with any further lockdowns in the UK or in Spain, but if the National Park give us a permit and the refugio are happy for us to come.... then I don't think we need to worry any more about it.

Sandy

Message from Martin Hoff:

1) If there is a permit, I am happy to go assuming

2a) Ignacio says he's happy to have us there and

2b) there is clarity on current availability\operation of Asturias cave rescue - if there's only eight Ario cavers like in 2019, some help would probably be required in the event of a proper problem if it's more than one or two pitches below the surface.

3) the community of Cangas strikes me as irrelevant except for anyone travelling by public transport. There is no reason to visit Cangas at all for hire car parties - there are plenty of supermarkets between the airport and Los Lagos and if they are open on anything other than a rationed essential supplies only basis, they must be expecting open custom and have put in whatever mitigating measures they consider appropriate.

4) It may be that with social distancing in operation inside the refugio, Ario cavers should think a bit harder about camping instead of staying inside the refugio. Extra consideration for avoiding the Bar Maria-Rosa at Los Lagos may also be in order, depending on what Ignacio says.

5) There is plenty of dry pasta etc stored in Xitu and we would be better served to make a good dent in either eating it or binning it rather than keep it all waiting for the 2037 expo. Camping and getting into some of that would keep us more separate from Ignacio's customers. Having a made-up Milton disinfectant handwash solution readily available for campers is a challenge I think we can handle.

6) Proximity to other cavers not from the same households in hire cars presents some risk but nobody is going to think that everyone hiring their own car separately is a realistic idea. Being at Ario presents some risk. Caving and hiking presents an accident risk with meaningful consequences but the situation at Ario, particularly for anyone prepared to camp presents significantly less risk of infection than, for example, for people using public transport in densely populated areas in their normal daily lives. Caving and hiking accordingly, on less ambitious projects seems a reasonable precaution.

7) Second wave and further lockdown, I'll take my chances. I'm happy to buy flights on the understanding it might not happen due to developments between now and then and take the risk of losing the money. If the situation settles down further or stays the same, I'm happy to go, and if it deteriorates\escalates further in the meantime, I'd be less keen to go anyway so I'm cool with cancelling late if that's how it goes.

Still no news re the permit, although i sent an email a week ago to chase up.

Chatting with a work colleague of mine who lives in Oviedo the other day, who says that alot of the spanish are holidaying regionally at the moment as opposed to going to the beaches, so rural places are a bit busier. The covid situation is fine there at the moment (low cases), but cases are rising slowly in the country again.

Re refugio, from Ignacios reply i gather he is happy for us to come, however, he thinks he's quite busy first two weeks of sept, and as expected, folk staying in the refugio would need to keep out of the building except for meals and sleep. I suspect most folk here would be happy to camp anyway and self-cater, but its just worth bearing in mind that unless you're actually booked in to the refugio you may not be able to eat there.

Will update as and when i can to keep everyone in the loop.

So I heard today from my agent in the field that the national park has been issuing permits as normal, and other expeditions have already been going to the Picos. So there is still hope...

Yep! I think so. Don't want to pester them too much, but will chase it up again soon, just in case my email ended up in spam or anything. The initial reply a few weeks back was optimistic i thought and hence why still hopeful, and it often does take a while to receive the paper permit (or PDF).

So...the current list of 'keenies' is looking like:

Mike
Steph
Sandy
Phil Baker
Martin Hoff

Be good to know who else might be keen? :-)

A few days late, but i dont think it matters too much now.....

The permit finally arrived a few days ago (with the wrong dates on i might add, although the shortened time period may have been deliberate given current times as i did ask for a 6 week period to begin with), but i think everyone will agree that with the way things are progressing in Spain it would be silly to be thinking of an expedition now. The foreign office is still advising against travel unless essential.

So that's it. Here's to getting out there in 2021! It would be good to get chatting about this during the autumn!

Hope everyone is keeping safe and well!!
Mike

Yeah we need to get decent size team together so we can have a proper expo next year. Maybe some sort of meeting in the winter to get enthusiasm going? That's if it's ever going to be allowed again :-(